School Without Suffering

Laura: My guest today on the podcast is at Adva Hernan. She is a teacher, coach and child development specialist who is helping teachers ignite their love for teaching and create a life they never thought possible. Adva, thank you for joining us today.

Adva: Thank you so much for having me.

Laura: I'm really excited that I get to talk to you today we got connected in a Facebook group where I had put out a post asking for folks who wanted to share their story of struggling or suffering in school. And so I want to start there. What brought you what brought you here today? What do you want to tell us about your experiences?

Adva: So I grew up as a kid with an IEP. I had my severe I had severe language, related disabilities, and comprehension related disabilities. And school was never easy. For me, it was always challenging. I, you know, the first from first through eighth grade, I had a tutor, who I went to every single week, and I was always in, you know, with the Office of Disability, if I needed the extra support, if I needed the extra help, I actually went to a school like college, where they had a office of disability where you could meet with a tutor twice a week, and you meet with a social worker once a week. So it was really like severe. And it's funny because I look back at my IEP and I was way under grade level. And nobody actually thought I would get past a BA. Just so just as a background, I have two bachelor's degrees and a master's degree. And so school was never easy for me. Like I always, I always had trouble. I always worked really, really hard, but it never paid off in the grade sense. And what got me here was really my work ethic, I truly believe and actually the support that I had.

Laura: Can you tell us more about that support? It sounds like you were at a school that actually had a lot of built in support.

Adva: Yeah, so when I was in elementary and middle school, I had a tutor. I would go to her I think once or twice a week, I don't remember exactly. But she was the one who really helped me flourish in school. In high school, I was part of the Office of Disabilities. So like anytime I needed anything, I was able to go to the resource room, I was able to work with a resource teacher. And then college, my first two years of college, not my last few years, my first years of college, I actually went to a school where their office of disability was actually tutors on hand and a social worker on hand. So twice a week, I was able to go and work with a tutor on anything that I needed support in. And then once a week, I was able to go in and work with a social worker. And that was really for my own, like mental health benefit to make sure that I was balancing everything in school. And honestly, like I had a love hate relationship with that. Because I didn't always love that I needed to go and I couldn't just, you know, stay, stay doing whatever I wanted to do and just go when I needed it. But honestly, that time, like taught me how to advocate for myself and taught me how that honestly, in the last few years, I've also learned that like working hard doesn't always pay off and that's okay. But it's all a matter of how you look at it and how you move forward.

Laura: Yeah, I'm hearing you talk about academic support through your tutors. I'm also hearing you talk about emotional support through the social worker and someone to help make sure that you're balancing your work and your mental health. And like you just said, I'm also hearing about mindset. So could you tell us a little bit about how it felt for you to be in the position that you were in you were working really hard, you weren't always seeing it pay off in grades. And you just said even as an adult you're you're still learning that lesson of like hard work doesn't always pay off maybe in the way that you think it's going to what does that feel like? Because we have a lot of parents who are listening who I think have have kids are going through something very similar.

Adva: I mean, to put it bluntly, it sucks. It's not fun and it honestly like I'm still learning it As an adult, things aren't always going my way. And I do have to rely on other supports. Something that like I was just, I just became a part of was life coaching, I believe in therapy. And I, you know, and I did that for a while, even while I was in college and like made sure that I was on top of it, because honestly, the things that even if the grades aren't there, that doesn't mean first of all, it doesn't mean that your kid is not smart. That doesn't mean that your kid is, you know, not up to par or not, you know, good enough to get into college or get into grad school. Like there are so many ways nowadays to go to school, you don't actually have to go to school in person if you don't want to. And something that I learned actually from going to school in person. And then switching to a fully online school for my second bachelor's and my master's was that I learned better online. I didn't do well in school, sitting at a desk and learning, but I did really well, online in my second bachelor's, and in my master's program, I graduated with 3.8 GPA, nobody would have would care if I graduated with a 2.5. But at the end of the day, the drastic change that happened from when I was in school and sitting in class every single day and coming home with homework, versus going to school online and finding a place that I actually thrived. Yeah, makes a really big difference. So what I would say to parents is don't give up like hope that your kid will be able to thrive in life. Because at the end of the day, grades are great, you're just grades there, that's all there is. And nobody actually cares what you get in school, after you graduate. Nobody cares about your GPA, nobody cares if you got an A in biology. At the end of the day, it's about being a good person, but also like teaching your kids that work ethic so that they can go into the real world and thrive even if they had delays when they were growing up. So you know, I always talk about the fact that I had delays growing up I was an IEP kid. And and you know, resource rooms and social workers and whatever else. But I graduated from I graduated with two Bas and a Master's, I worked in school for seven years and actually was a requested teacher and transitioned myself into working as a child development specialist for early intervention, which works with kids who have disabilities, and, and coaching teachers on the side to help them thrive in their classrooms. So honestly, if you're a parent, listening to this, and you're struggling with your child at home, just know like this is just a phase. And if you can, you know support them in whatever way they need. That's all that matters. Because at the end of the day, grades are just grades, and it's gonna suck right now. But it'll get better as time goes by.

Laura: Did you have someone in your life that was telling you that when you were in school and getting those grades that you were working so hard for, but we're not happy with the outcome? Did you have anyone that was helping you understand that? That was okay, and you are going to be okay. Or did you have to figure that out on your own?

Adva: My mom, during school, my mom was that person. My mom was the one who detected the potential of having a disability. My mom was the one who got me tested. As soon as she detected it. My mom was also the one who said I don't care what grade you bring home. You're working hard. And if the grade isn't there, it is what it is. I was the one who was hard on myself. I was the one who wanted the consistent A B whatever grade. But if I didn't get it, my mom didn't care. My mom just said like you studied, you did your best. That's really all that matters. And even you know, I remember when I went off to college, even my mom even said like, if this is it for your college career, like you just do the four years and you're done. That's fine. You don't need to do anything else. And I was the one who pushed myself to keep going. But at the end of the day, I also knew that my mom didn't really care what I did as long as I was happy.

Laura: And what did that do for you? Knowing that?

Adva: I think it pushed me. It pushed me to keep going when it was hard and honestly, you know, in the last year and a half I've had a really, really hard year and a half or so. Just personally and the biggest thing my mom knows me very well even Now as an adult, I don't live in her house, like I have my own house, whatever. But even now, you know, she was able, even like a year, about a year ago, she was able to tell that something was going on with me. She was like, listen, therapy's not working. Find a life coach. Try that route. She's like an I think God, my parents are able to financially help if they need to. But again, like she, she literally was like, find a life coach, talk to a life coach, I will pay for it, and see where you are after your life coaching. And that's what made the difference for me. So even now, as an adult, my mom is like, okay, you can do this, you can get through this. I know you will. You just need to find the right people to support you.

Laura: Yeah, it sounds very much like your mom was an is focused, not on a specific outcome or attached to a specific outcome. Right. Like she was not attached to us getting certain grades. She wasn't attached to you, it sounds like going to any particular school, or achieving any particular degree or anything like that. But rather, is focused on what's happening now and is interested in not like what it will be the outcome of this, but what is going on with you now? And how do we make sure you're having the best experience now?

Adva: Yeah, yeah, she wasn't she's she's definitely not attached to the outcome. She's more trying to be in the moment in that sense, like, just help me where I am right now and figure out a way to help me be better. So that, honestly, so she can see her kid happy. Yeah. Yeah, she does. Same thing for my brother. So yeah, she's just that she's kind of very, she's very intuitive in that sense. And she's, she's definitely not attached to any kind of outcome. She doesn't really care what the outcome is, as long as we're happy.

Laura: Yeah. And it sounds like that's very effective in suffering. I want to go back to the fact that you after college, after you finished your traditional four year in person college decided to go back for a second bachelor's degree, but then this time, do it differently. Can you tell me about what motivated you to get your second bachelor's? And what are their sparked the idea or, you know, what sparked the idea to go online? And how was that process of making that decision, when you were in the midst of all that?

Adva: So after my initial bachelor's degree, I went to I started teaching. But my initial bachelor's degree was not an education. It was in psychology. And my first year was not what I would call a successful year, for me, at least, like I was lucky in the sense of the director had faith in me and prepared me and actually ended up working there for a very long time. But my first year, I was a co teacher, and I didn't hold up my end of the co teaching. And that was because I lacked confidence. And I didn't really know what what I was doing in the classroom, because I'd never done it. I had all this camp experience. And I knew the basics, but I really didn't know enough. So that's kind of what inspired me to go back to, to, to college or to get another bachelor's. And what ended up happening was, I couldn't work full time and do a bachelor's in person. And so when I, that was at the time, I think now it's very different. But my friend was going through a master's online and had done her Bachelor's online completely. And she said to me, she's like, she's like, just go check it out. See what we offer. She's like, they have an education program. There. You know, accredited, they're good school. So I called them honestly, within about a month, I was already registered for my first class. And when I started going to school online, I started to see that I really was able to shine online. You know, I have serious test anxiety. I do not perform well when it comes to testing. And a lot of the online schools. Yes, there are random like quizzes, but it's not focused. It's not test based. So to shine through my papers through my presentations, through discussions, rather than having it all the best based on a test that I have to study for. And so that's where when I got my bachelor's degree, I love the fact that I was able to do it fully online while teaching full time. And I did the same thing for my masters.

Laura: It sounds like you just got creative, you were like I have, I'm having this problem. I mean, I'm in this teaching position, I want to stay in it, but I'm not feeling effective. Here's the solution, I think, to go and get my bachelor's in education. But I'm not gonna be able to do that in person while teaching full time. So let's try online. And then you found that that environment just worked a lot better for you for a lot of reasons that maybe you didn't even expect. And then you wouldn't gotten your masters online, too.

Adva: Yep. For I, I went and got my master's in education with specializations in special education and educational leadership.

Laura: And you stuck with online because you were like, This is what works.

Adva: Yeah, I stuck with it. Because it was what helped me feel successful. Yeah. And I was able to take what I was learning and bring it to the classroom.

Laura: Yeah. And it helped you feel successful, and then you were successful. And yeah, and now you've gone from a first year teacher where you felt like you were not effective at all? Do you know you coach teachers? Yeah. That's incredible. First of all, just congratulations.

Adva: You, thank you. I mean, I, you know, first year teacher, I didn't know what I was doing. And then my last few years, I had parents requesting to be in my class parents who I didn't even know, by the way, who had just heard about my classroom and requested and then stepping out and saying, you know, what, teachers need more help. And I'm going to be that person to do it.

Laura: What I'm also struck by right now is even the fact that having struggled so much in school, and probably had a really unpleasant experience going through school, when you were a student, you then decided to go back to into school

Adva: Yeah, you know, it's funny, when I first started teaching, I only wanted to be with the little ones. And I and my, it's funny, I've had this conversation with my mom, she's convinced that it was because I wasn't. I wasn't confident in myself to be able to teach, you know, something like reading or writing because of all the struggles that I had. When I was younger, and the the amount that's changed recently, over the last couple years is you know, like now I say, Okay, I've been out of, I've been out of school, like out of the full time teaching position for about two years. And if I were to go back, I wouldn't teach those little ones, I love them. They are like, they were like my babies. But I would want to go into the older grades, I would want to do kindergarten first second, rather than toddlers, or two and three year olds.

Laura: Because you're confident that you that you can.

Adva: Because I feel like I've I've changed a lot over the last few years. And I and I've worked a lot on my own self confidence. And I think that's something that is super important. Because as parents, we want our kids to be confident, but confidence doesn't just come out of nowhere, you know, like your child has to be has to feel good about themselves, and how can you make them feel good about themselves when they're not doing well? Instead of, you know, giving them a hard time about not doing well in school? You know, say to them, Listen, I know you tried, you tried really hard, it didn't work out, and that's okay, we'll move forward. We'll try for the next one. And, you know, knowing that they have that support kind of helps to build that confidence for me, when I was in school, going back and being able to implement the things that I was learning was what built my confidence.

Laura: I want to really highlight what you just said about your advice to parents to say, if your child does not succeed at something, I know you tried, it didn't work out and that's okay. I think it sounds like your mom is an incredible example of someone who was able to do that. You're not getting the grades and that's okay. I think it can be really hard for a lot of parents to really understand and believe that it's actually okay it's things are going to be okay if If you don't bring home all A's, or all A's and B's even or, or consistent, you know, consistent Lehigh GPAs. Or if their child is behind, you know, being told that they're behind in reading or behind in math or something like that, it can be really, really difficult for parents to know that it's okay, so I'm really glad, and so honored to have you on the podcast, because you are an example a like shining example of showing it is actually okay, the world is not going to end for your child your child doesn't. Their future is not defined by struggles that they have in school. And so I just wanted to highlight that because I think that's so powerful. So if anyone who's listening, if you've got a kiddo who is struggling, and you're struggling with your own anxiety about it, please look at advice as, as an example of what can happen when, when you kind of let go of that attachment.

Adva: Yeah, I would also say that a lot of time, a lot of times I think as parents, you don't really want to see that your kid is having trouble by any means. Because who wants to see their kids suffering? You know, nobody, nobody in their right mind wants to see their kid suffer in school suffer outside of school suffer in whatever way. But at the end of the day, the best thing you can do for your child is show them that support. And show them that this is the be all end all, like your life isn't gonna end because you got an F on a test, you know, your life keeps going. And a lot of times what happens is the kid is actually harder on themselves than you will be on them. So you have to also keep that in mind. And when your child is struggling, I think it's really easy to say like no way that can't be for my child. But it's also the harder thing is to step back and say, okay, my child is struggling, what can I do to help them. And it doesn't mean they're gonna get all A's, it doesn't mean that they're gonna, you know, come out of school with a 4.0 GPA. But you're taking that step forward and saying, Okay, how am I supporting my child? How am I making sure that they know that their lives no matter what kind of grade they're getting, and that they know that they're gonna get the support that they need at the end of the day?

Laura: Do you think that your outlook on this made you into that requested teacher in any way, like you're an attachment to your students getting certain grades, you letting your students know that they're loved, no matter what their academic outcome in your class, like? How did that inform you as a teacher?

Adva: I think for me, it was, I saw kids struggling, and I saw parents who weren't ready to get them the help that they need. And honestly, that is what broke my heart as a teacher. Because I was working with kids who are really young. And if you work with kids who are really young, and you get them the services that they need at that young age, many times, they're able to grow out of that difficulty, that disability, whatever you want to call it. But if you keep postponing that, it's going to just get harder and harder, not only for your kid, but for you. And I think the biggest thing for me was like kids need to know that they are loved unconditionally. And they need to know that it's okay for them to make mistakes. We make mistakes as adults every single day. Right? And if kids aren't allowed to make mistakes, then they're never going to learn from those mistakes. And that's my like, that's my biggest thing. Like, mistake, a mistake can be not studying enough for a test. A mistake can be being so hard on yourself at that, that you end up feeling. You know, this huge lack of confidence, you know, feeling like you're failing, whatever failure might feel like to you, you know, that's how I felt in my first year of teaching. And honestly, that's how I felt when I was in school dealing with working really, really hard and never getting the grades that I wanted. So I just think that like Kids need to be kids, number one, and number two, and that's unfortunately, going out the door slowly but surely. And number two is kids need to know that they're loved. Yeah. Other than that, as, as teachers as parents, you just need to show them that they're loved unconditionally. And it doesn't matter what you do if you make a mistake, if a kid makes a mistake, if they make a mistake, but they can you can teach them it can be a, like a learning opportunity for you. And I always say that like, even to my clients. Now, you know, what do I do about these behaviors? Well, why are these kids behaving this way? Like, what is it that's causing them to behave visit just to get on your case? Or is it because there's something else going on? are they struggling? Is something going on at home? Like, what are they trying to communicate with you? And I, and I say this even to parents, like, look for those signs? Why are you Why is your kid doing whatever they're doing that you don't necessarily approve of, quote, unquote, and figure out how you can work backwards to help them navigate that time?

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Laura: Yeah, everything you're saying is so powerful. I have a million thoughts in my head. One thing that I'm that really I'm going to take forward from this conversation is, is how you just characterize a mistake can be something like not studying enough for a test, a mistake that, you know, we think about all the time you made a mistake on your homework, you got the answer wrong, whatever. But you just said a mistake can be being too hard on yourself. Right? I missed that. Like, let's think about that for a second it a mistake can be thinking that you got this app, and now your life is over. So the mistake, we like, let's not even talk about the the grade itself, coming from any mistakes, but a mistake in our thinking about that grade. And now we're thinking about like, this is this is a mistake in our thinking we can learn from it and think differently. Yeah, we don't have to think about it as like, oh, even you know, my child, or this student has an issue with the way that they're thinking they made a mistake in their thinking. Let's use that as a learning opportunity. That is, that is to me just such a powerful idea.

Adva: Yeah. And I think it all goes back to it all goes back to mindset. Yeah. And, and we hear about mindset all the time, as teachers as adults, we hear about mindset. But a lot of times, it's easier to, and this is, this is something that I'm also learning, as time goes by, it's easier to fall into the negative than look at the positive. You know, when when your child is, you know, behaving in a certain way in, in the class and you're getting phone calls home, it's easier to say like, how dare they, and yell at them when they come home, rather than trying to understand where they're coming from, or why they're behaving in that way. And this is, a lot of times, this is our brain kind of keeping us safe. And, and as parents, we want our children to be a certain way, right? We want our children to behave in school, to have friends to feel loved. But if they're not behaving in school, they're not going according to that plan, which puts us in a position where we feel unsafe, right, we feel like they're not at our standards, but at the end of the day, they're also what eight nine. Sometimes for like, you have to you have to give them time to learn that some of these behaviors are just not appropriate. And part of that is having that mindset of okay, we can learn from this. How can I teach my child and help my child learn from this situation?

Laura: And knowing yourself as that parent or or as a teacher as any adult who's involved in helping this child grow, knowing yourself that you may be having this strong negative reaction to the behavior because it is your brain reacting to feeling unsafe. We we actually talk about this all the time at school about suffering. This is something we teach all of the students and also really try to message to parents. We talked about our anxiety response we talked about our amygdala and how the amygdala kind of sounds the alarm and starts in anxiety response. When something happens, we have a memory triggered, that has in the past, been stressful or in some way been an unsafe. And so then we get into this fight or flight. And that's often if not always, where these negative responses come from. And I think it's really powerful to know and understand that that is actually your brain doing exactly what it's supposed to. And when we are in danger, having that response built in, that happens so fast, which is why it's so hard to not do it is really good for our survival. And so being accepting of that and saying, like, okay, my brain is supposed to work this way, I'm actually really grateful that it does, because it's gonna keep me safe, when there's actually danger. I also want to be aware of it, and that it can get tripped. This system, this fight or flight system can get tripped when I'm not actually in danger, or when my kid is not actually in danger. So my job is to just be more aware, build the awareness. And if you do get a phone call, while your child is still at school, you have the luxury of some time actually, because your your kid isn't home right now. So you notice, am I freaking out? Am I is my blood boiling? Am I angry? Am I stressed? What's happening? Okay, it's probably because something in me believes that something dangerous has happened to my child, I'm worried about now. Like you just said, they're not going to be able to make friends, they're not going to do well in school. Why do you care about all of that, because you want them to be happy and healthy and safe. And generally, when we're thinking about school, we're thinking about preparing our kids for the future, right? So it's actually really easy if subconsciously, even if you don't realize it, but you're thinking like, Oh, my God, my child's life is gonna be ruined, they're not going to get a good job, they're not going to be able to do it, you know, wasn't the things that they want to do. And all of that happens so fast. So when you have the luxury of time, you can sit and take a few deep breaths and try to unpack what's happening. Then from there, you can decide on okay, if what I'm actually concerned about is my child's future. And for them to be able to have the skills, behavioral skills, interpersonal skills, academic skills, you know, work skills, all the things that they need, what it needs to happen, right now. They need to have the opportunity to learn them. Okay. So if that's my, my goal, then my next step is very different from from like, a punishment or something like that.

Adva: Yep. Yep.

Laura: That is hugely powerful thinking. And if you don't have the luxury of time, and you see something and you react, and your action comes from that place of fight or flight, versus from the more productive place where we're thinking with our prefrontal cortex, rather than our amygdala or our kind of midbrain, then you might make a mistake. And that's okay. We just said mistakes are okay. And so then you get to, after that mistake is made, you got to think about it later. And you can you always have another chance with your child, and you can let them know, I reacted this way I made this mistake. I'm sorry. I don't want to hurt you. And you can model for them forgiving yourself, acknowledging the mistake that you made, and then making a change moving forward.

Adva: Yeah, it is so important to show your child that you are human to that you make just as many mistakes. But you are able to also learn from those mistakes and you can show your child how you do that. And that can also help your child understand that mistakes are okay and they happen. And it's just a matter how you how they move forward. So if they made a mistake in school, and they've seen you make mistakes and move forward and change, they can start to understand that it's okay for them to have made a mistake. But they don't want to do that action anymore, or they don't want to behave in that way anymore because this is what happens. Right? And also I think as parents Um, we are about societal norms. I mean, all adults are in all honesty and societal norms, say, Kids need to do well in school to be able to have a future. And I don't think that's always necessarily true. Should you promote that your kid does as best as they can? Absolutely. You know, I wouldn't say promote your kid getting an F in class. But what I would say is, you know, your child's best is not their friends best. It's not your neighbor's kids best, your child's best is different than someone else's. And if they have issues in school, whatever those issues might be, they need to learn how to navigate those issues, so that they can become the adults and the workers that you want them to be right, or the people that you want them to grow up to be.

Laura: Yes, I want to spend more time on what something you just said, which is, the societal norm says, kids need to do well in school to do well as adults. Mm hmm. And that's not necessarily true. And I completely agree with you. And I think that that norm really does a lot of damage, because not everyone can, or is going to do well in this system. And I always like to remind myself, other people, that school is a system that we made up is this system that we made up, and it provided the there's a lot of functions in our society. t's one environment. There are lots of other ways to be successful. So if we're trying to change the societal norm of, say, Kids need to do well in school to do well in life. We're rejecting that. What is it that kids need to do well, or not? Sorry? That's not what I mentioned that what is it that kids need in order to be able to do well in life?

Adva: So really good question. I honestly think kids need role models that are showing them that first of all, Life is not just one line where you're going from one point to the next, and you're getting there straight there. That's not how life works, you go through ups and downs. And I think kids need to see those ups and downs from their parents, from the people who they hang out with whoever they're around. Because at the end of the day, you're looking good, anybody is looking to go from point A to point B, but point A to point B doesn't take a month to get to it can take six years. Right? And it can be an up and down kind of pattern.

Laura: Yeah, and I just had the idea to when you were saying that, that these are other measures are potential metrics to measure success with other than grades or things that we might traditionally measure success with, right? So there are lots of ways if we're talking about changing the norm, student kids need to do well, in school to do well in life. Generally, doing well in school meanings means get getting good grades. So if we're changing the narrative of students need to get good grades, take, you know, the right classes, and all of that stuff to do well in life and saying, there are other things that kids need to do well in life. One of them being behind two people, one of them being love themselves, one of them being advocate for themselves. Those are then metrics that we can look at to see is my kid being successful is my kid learning the things that they need to learn to do well in life, okay, they have their grades or not A's and B's, but these are the things that they're doing. Therefore, I can have less anxiety about their ability to be successful when they're adults, because I see them learning these skills and doing nice things. I would love for you to talk a little bit about the work that you are currently doing with teachers. Because teachers are also adults that your kids that kids are interacting with every day, right? Like there's a set of academic standards that teachers are tasked with teaching. But there's so much more that that kids are watching them do, and other things that they're learning from their teachers. And so I would, I would just love to hear about your approach to working with teachers, and the outcomes that you see from your work.

Adva: Sure. So I have a program, one on one with teachers, specifically geared toward their needs. I think that is the biggest selling point, because at the end of the day, school, like going to grad school going for a BA, it doesn't teach you everything you need to know when you're in the classroom. And that's also like a big thing to think about when your kids are going through school, school isn't going to teach them everything they need to know. And getting good grades isn't going to teach them everything they need to know once they get into a workforce, right. So what I hear from a lot of first year teachers is, school did not prepare me, it did not prepare me for my first year of teaching. And so something that i i always help with is this idea that a classroom is never going to be perfect, it's never going to be a perfect place. Because life isn't perfect, and your students are not going to be perfect. And the important thing in the classroom is not only to teach whatever the agenda is, but to also gear that towards your students individual needs. And I think that's the hardest part of being a teacher also. So when I work with teachers, I work with them for a 12 week period. And they can if they want to, they can keep going for another 12 weeks, or they can decide that they're ready to just be done. At the end of the day, what teachers really need is the confidence to go into their classroom and know that they're doing the best that they can. And I think that's my biggest mission is like keeping teachers in the classroom, but also helping them to feel confident in themselves and in their teaching abilities, no matter what they learned in school, no matter what grades they got in school.

Laura: Absolutely. That's incredible, incredible work, and exactly where I think we should end today. I don't think there's anything else we can possibly say about it. If our listeners want to learn more about you and the work that you do, where can they find you?

Adva: I am most present on Instagram. My handle is shaping little minds podcast. I do have a podcast for early childhood educators. And I also I mean, I also checked my email on a consistent basis. It's long, I'm warning you now. It's ah dot [email protected]. So those are the two biggest platforms. And if you want to check out my podcast, you can. It's on Spotify and on iTunes as of right now.

Laura: Awesome. We will link all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much. She for being here today and sharing all of your wisdom I'm really inspired from our conversation and energized and just ready to get back to it.

Adva: Thank you so much for having me it was really really fun.

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Our next episode of the School Without Suffering podcast is the penultimate of the season, and if you have any students in your life who can’t seem to get a diagnosis that explains or helps with their struggles, you won’t want to miss it.