School Without Suffering

Laura: We’re ending this podcast season with Lisa Richer, mom of two neurodiverse sons and founder of Journey 2 Bloom. With her work stemming from personal experience, Lisa helps parents of neurodiverse learners find and secure the best services, schools, and learning environments for their child’s unique needs. I’m especially excited to share it with those of you who have ever felt overwhelmed or at a loss about what step to take next to help your child. Here’s our conversation.

Lisa: I am Lisa richer. And at the core, I am a connector. So I'm gonna, I'm going to say that there's a lot of things I can say. But the business that I run is starting to bloom and simplifying the neurodiverse learning journey for others is at the core of it. But as I think about it more, and I do a lot with the art of relationship building, as well. And so when I think about those intersections of neurotypical and nurture divergent, and the conversations and the nonlinear way of looking at things, when I when I think about what I do, and people ask me all the time, and sometimes the changes, not not the core of it, but just how I verbalize it, creating opportunities for others, to show up with curiosity, clarity, confidence and courage while navigating unknown, unfamiliar and oftentimes uncomfortable circumstances necessary to reach their goals. And I know that's a very broad umbrella. But it's important to share that because when you're so high up with curiosity, and you're gaining that clarity, and you're navigating it and you're surrounding yourself with those that are willing to listen to understand and connect with you and meet you where you are at your personal and situational best, only then can we really start to form that pathway to helping ourselves helping our learners because I like to say yes, early intervention is like the core of right really liked to focus because the earlier the intervention, the more opportunity for for kids to thrive early on, but those kids such as If you and I talked about this, when we were growing up, there were so many resources that that weren't available. So helping adults help themselves recognize that they're not broken, that they're not less than, and that how they view things is okay. And then providing the tools and resources to also help them thrive because kids that are divergent grew up to be adults that are neurodivergent. And so it does, we learn to mask it, we learn to deal with it, but we don't necessarily learn to thrive because of it.

Laura: And my interpretation of what I observe in the world is that a lot of the challenge, not all of the challenge, but a lot of the challenge of parenting, in general, but especially parenting, a child who has challenges, whatever they may be, a lot of that challenge comes from parents own self talk about, and their own beliefs about themselves. And the emotional burden that that can put on you as a parent, feeling like, I'm not doing a good enough job, I am failing in this that in the other way. Things should be this way, and they're not and not having the tools to really look at where those feelings come from and and see that they're not necessarily the objective truth. And if they're not the objective truth, then what else might you get to feel that might be might feel better? And might you put you in a better position to do right by yourself? do right by your kids? And just feel less? Heavy?

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I, so I retain stuff by writing it down. So I was taking some notes when we were talking, and you were talking about the beliefs and self and self talk. And then what also came to mind as you were sharing, that was social norms. So some of that self talk comes from social norms, it comes from how we were brought up and comes from, who were your models, and how much you were silenced in your speech and how you believed you saw the world and others being uncomfortable and not understanding the way you viewed the world. And so then that does impact. Sometimes it's to one extreme, you try to give your children everything in anything. And that's also not always great, because sometimes, then you end up enabling, I've done that myself and trying to pull back and go, I'm giving you everything I wanted to give others. So I wanted to get from others when I was younger. So you know, finding that, that happy medium, but also finding people that allow you to be in a safe space, without judgment, so that you can uncover what you know what you don't know. And what you don't know, you don't know. And piece that together. And there's something that came to my mind, it's a visual, I talk to a lot of like, clients, both parents, because a lot of the things I do a parents is helping them gain the confidence to use their voice to then help their children get through whatever it is in school, or talk to this school team with confidence that they understand and can be a part of that team. But also in professionals. The parents are just professionals in general, the control like there's, I have these three circles that come to mind, and I use them It's the circle of control. And there it's the what can you control? What can you influence and what can you impact. And so when you're sitting in a circle of concern, you really can't control a lot of those unknown factors in the outside. Yet, that's where a lot of that belief and self talk comes from, is from the things that we've learned. And then if we can't get out of our own way to do that, then we can't ever really help our kids do it better and different. And we need others to help us do it. I mean, I learned that really early on our very first pediatrician said Get your son help. Like let's go get him assessor infants and toddlers. We were in Maryland at the time. And we're back there now but we were there with our first one before we moved to California. And she was As I was first time on, he was a couple weeks old. And there were already things that were going on that were, we were having problems with him feeding. And she immediately said, lean in, let others help you. Because you are a first time mom, you don't know everything. And thank goodness, she said that. Because had I had someone early on say, Oh, don't worry about it. It's all going to work itself out like a lot of the people that I work with, and a lot of the clients that I have, I think at some point and neatly, I would have gotten to where I am today. But it would not have been. It was tough enough. I'm not sure how I would have gotten here.

Laura: Yeah. Less. Can you tell us more about about how you got to where you are today?

Lisa: Absolutely. So I started on this journey. From a parental standpoint, almost 17 years ago, my oldest was having trouble eating, like bottle feeding and nursing. So we ended up having to get a special bottle called a Haberman bottle, where he had to turn it so that when he swallowed, it would only let so much like milk come out so that he could swallow it without feeling like he was gagging. That led to further assessments with infants and toddlers and them telling us he had a speech delay, which then led to we ended up moving to California eventually, realizing he had gross motor skill delay, he had sensory processing disorder, eventually he got diagnosed with being autistic. So lots of things happen. Lots of people that told us nothing was wrong, or just get over it. Even family members saying Oh, it'll be fine. 10s of 1000s of dollars of services, finding schools that didn't want to accept him that and then ones that did accept him for who he was. So this is all part of that journey that got me where I am. So I I started my business initially in 2018. And at that point, it was all because of the journey I have with my older son, my younger son who's three years younger, where we thought he was neurotypical and that everything was working out great. Around eight years old, we started recognizing there were a lot of things going on with him too. And eventually, he was diagnosed ADHD with visual processing disorder, anxiety, apps, and seizures. So lots and lots of stuff between the two kids, very different interventions, very different ways of supporting them very different needs from every avenue. And I had been given so many tools and resources. From the subject matter experts, I called them my my dream team of people both in California. And then when I moved back to Maryland, that were I was still tapping into the California and helping me figure out how to navigate the school system and what to do in a different state and how to work with people. Eventually, I had a principal say you need to do this for other parents, you really need to move forward, I had a blog that I had been blogging, since my oldest was I think two so before it was cool to write be a blogger. And so but that was my outlet, I was a writer, so I needed to just kind of get it out there somehow. And through all of this, I realized all of my things, I'm going to call them things back then that made me who I am. But I was silenced for because people didn't understand me. They made me feel less that they didn't allow me to speak my voice. Or if I had a concern, they wouldn't believe it because they didn't understand it. And so from my parental journey and my own journey to clarity and my own diagnoses, it's informed everything that I do to get to where I am today, running Johnny to bloom, and helping other parents help themselves new through the journey. And then helping professionals understand the art of relationship building, and how you can be a different type of learner you can be a different type of thinker. You can show up emotional and passionate. And that doesn't mean that you need to change who you are, to do great things. And I was told that in corporate, that's why I'll never go back to corporate I was told you need to be less passionate, you need to be more monotone. You need to be less emotional. Well, these are all part of who I am innately. And so the work I do is to help out learners understand that it's okay to be their authentic self, as I continue to work on getting back to my authentic self, and especially in the world of neuro divergence, and the neurodiversity umbrella world, because we are nonlinear thinkers, and the world is not set up for us. And so giving people the space, to not have judgment, to talk through what isn't, isn't working, and to figure it out, as we go. So meeting people out there situational best, because I've been there, I've lived it. And I feel like it's now my life's purpose, to help others help themselves figure it out.

Laura: Yeah, there was so much in what you just said, I want to, I want to start, like, I want to go back even further in your story. Because you mentioned your own differences. And learning things as an adult that you wish that you had access to as a kid and that resources just we just didn't have them. We just didn't know what we know now. So when you were a child, and you were in school, what were the kinds of things that you were experiencing?

Lisa: Good question. And I'm gonna, I'm going to tie in my time as an athlete, yes, I was a gymnast. And from very young age, I started gymnastics at five, I was an elite level gymnast. And so there were struggles on both sides that I've only connected as an adult. So, in school, I started traveling for gymnastics when I was 11. So I was in fifth grade, fifth and sixth grade, when I was traveling, and so when I was in the class, and I had some teachers that were doing things that were hands on, I was able to retain it like this is all still becoming more clear for me. But then I realized that like starting in like sixth grade, I don't remember a lot of what I learned so to this day, like I can't teach my own kids that are stuck, because I don't remember it. But what I've learned and recognize now is I never was able to really learn from the book. And so when I was traveling, I had to try to teach myself, but I don't learn that way. So because I didn't have somebody modeling it, I didn't have somebody visually showing it to me on the board. I didn't have that auditory input, either. It wasn't sticking. And I would study and study and study for tests through middle high even in college. And then I was lucky if I get a C on a test. And I'm like, I don't understand. And then like my parents would be like, What did you study? What's going on? What's wrong with you? And it wasn't intentional. And I was like, Yes, I did. And then I just felt worse and worse and worse about myself. So my anxiety would go up my negative self talk. And the only place I've really felt myself was when I was in the gym training as a as a gymnast. But I also struggled with things there with mounts and dismounts on like bars and B mostly bars was Mount mounts and dismounts on beam and then even on vault like as I got closer to the springboard, my steps would always get messed up. My coaches would always say, what's wrong? What's wrong? Why are you doing that? You know, you're doing this exact vol or you start at the same spot, and we trade hours and hours on end. So why is this not working? So again, more? What's wrong with me? What's wrong with me? What's wrong with me? Well, as an adult, I was showing this when we were offline. When I was getting taught to help my younger son with a home visual Vision Program, division therapist said, Do you know you have a depth perception thing going on? And I'm like, No. And so she's like, Hey, did you ever notice? And she brought up some of the things I just mentioned. I was like, yes. She said, Well, you could have used vision therapy. When you're playing Lara, we didn't know what vision therapy was. And I told my dad this story, and he goes, Well, how come no one ever got you the help for it? So that's a really great question, dad. And you know, the answer is because we didn't know we didn't know, right, and ADHD like I just more recently, I always knew I had it, but it's more recently been validated with my doctor's my therapist. And if I hadn't been in the gym, all those sometimes 678 hours in the summer. I don't even think I could have shown up to focus in school for the amount of time I was there. I only went to school for three quarters of the day. I had all my core classes that I left around one o'clock 130 went to the gym and train till 630 I can't I'm Imagine being in school for a full full day, when I could barely focus for the hours, I was there. And it just happened to be that I was a gymnast, where I was able to get the scanning and flipping. So my vestibular, my sensory systems, were always working because of the sport that I think chose me because it's what my body needed. Yeah. But it was school was always hard. I always say still, to this day, if I could learn the way that I have found places for my kids to learn, I would have loved school. But because school is still taught to a textbook. In most schools, at least in the public setting. It just doesn't work. It never worked for me, and it still doesn't work for people. So it breaks my heart to know that there's still so many kids struggling. And that's why like, I love what you all are doing to disrupt the industry.

Laura: Yeah, yeah, we, on the podcast, I always try to acknowledge just the the mountain of things that keeps public school the way I'm because it really is a it is like moving a mountain. And I got my master's in education, I graduated in 2015. And in that program, in almost every class, we would just acknowledge that the education system is the same as it was 100 years ago, essentially, like, we have smart boards and Chromebooks now, but we're essentially doing the same things. Since the 70s, when we started to acknowledge disability, like as a society and our responsibility as a society, to make things accessible, and all of that we have started to learn, and understand the ways that we can really help kids that are not neurotypical or who have special learning needs. And still, those things are kind of relegated to a separate category, when we think of education. And it is kind of heartbreaking because well, it's heartbreaking it from, you know, like an exclusionary perspective, seeing how kids can be excluded from educational experiences, because we think of these things in a separate category. But I think it's also heartbreaking because there are lots of kids who mask really well. There are lots of kids who are in environments where they just can't get access to resources. And those kids never get to experience the benefits of services that can help them. And that is really where they can internalize, there's something wrong with me. Right? Not there's something wrong with the environment that I'm in, or something wrong with me. Yes. And that is, like you said, like that can produce so much anxiety, it can produce, like self loathing, it can lead to suicidality even. And this statistics we're seeing about all of these things are really staggering. Our latest statistics show something like 70% of kids reporting that they feel anxiety or that they feel that anxiety is a big problem in their community. I don't have the statistics on on the other things that I mentioned right off the top of my head, but it just is a is a problem that is maybe growing, or maybe we're just getting better at measuring it. And we have these resources now and getting them to people is just so important so that we can all thrive.

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. I think that you brought up some really, really good points and I also would acknowledge that it's a ginormous and gargantuan task to make any change in the system. In within especially within the public schools. There are I think COVID While so much about it was not good. I believe that a blessing in disguise if there can be one is that it brought to the surface Just how many people are suffering with anxiety, just how many kids are actually not on grade level for different things across the country. It has brought to the surface, so many things that now we can't ignore any longer. At the same time, what? What I am seeing from the other side, you've just talked about it from getting your masters and all that, and speaking with the heads of special education in the county that I live in, in Maryland, but then also talking with people and other counties, because I have clients in different counties, it's not just the county I live in the county that I live in, I know them very well, because I went into the school system, and I was part of their parents support resource center for a couple of years. And I ended up going into COVID. But my hands were so tight on some things that I was like, I've got to leave to really make the impact I want because I was helping people with that were either going through child find, so there's a suspicion of a disability or some kind of something going on. Or they had an IEP already. But if they had a 504 plan, I just send them back to the school. But what often happens is those that are on five of fours may need an IEP, but they don't actually ever get assessed truly for it. Because like you're saying that they don't know how to speak up for it. But teachers aren't educated and trained to recognize it. And so we have this great thing about child find that if you see a suspicion, you should get them tested. But this leads me to one of the things in talking with the head of Special Ed in the county I'm in we aren't inclusion County, so the schools within our county have inclusion, which means there's a neurotypical and then are divergent. They're the IEP kids along with the gifted and talented, you know, included, they are either pulled out or pushed in services when they need them. But part of the problem becomes, there's not enough time to do the training, and to understand it and to reflect on it. And so like I created this thing called, which I had been doing pretty much I think my whole life, but then I finally put a name to it, right ideas, which is Reflect, implement, practice, and evaluate with ideas in mind, which people wanted to know what does ideas mean. So I made something up, inclusion, diversity, equity, accessibility, and sustainability. And if we don't take the time to reflect, and then implement, practice, and then evaluate, even when we're doing things that allow for teachers, especially general ed teachers, to gain insights into what to look for, for the suspicion, if they're not consistently practicing it, because they have people in their classes that are showing up that way. Just like anything else, like riding a bike, I hadn't written a bike and like eight years, well, when COVID hit, we got bikes because we needed to be outside, it took me a while to be able to ride a bike without my hands again, I was terminated. But I like was wobbly for quite some time. So you know, just kind of generalizing that if we if you don't have the funds, and we don't have the time set aside to do it, no matter no matter our good intentions. And this person even said to me, some of the things that her mentors told her 26 years ago are the same things that are happening. I'm like, well, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is not the sign of insanity. You know, that's what they say. So what are we doing differently? And, and unfortunately, I think it's creating these other spaces, to give kids opportunities to do more. Now with that said, I was at a meeting yesterday with a new client and another county that I hadn't had an opportunity to work in before. And they explained to me that all of their kindergarteners, there's a grant that their county gets that any kindergartener that's below a certain threshold with with dibbles, which helps to assess like phonics and potential possibilities of dyslexia, dysgraphia and other learning differences. If that if they're at a certain level and that assessment, they get automatically pulled into an intervention, because the goal is by the end of the kindergarten year, they're all at grade level in that arena. And if they're not, then they look at it again for first grade. But every county doesn't have that somehow this county was awarded a grant. So even within our state, every county is doing different things. And in some places, every school is doing something different. Whether it's a title one school, where they get these extra grants funded or somebody donates money that allows them Have additional. So there's no level playing field at all. And then when you add the people that don't have the resources, like you were saying, then they're literally sitting outside of the window looking in. 

Laura: Yeah. Yes, it is a really big and complex problem. And I think that I mean, the reason that school that suffering exists, and the it's for the same reason that you took your sons and looked for other opportunities, right is, if we can't make big widespread team changes in our overall system, yet, maybe one day, but yet, then how can we provide individual spaces outside spaces that can offer something different? And I'm really curious to hear about when you were going through that process with your first sign, and maybe both of your son's looking at schools looking at environments? Was that at all informed by your experience with school? Like, did you somehow know that you couldn't just put your your kid in a regular school? Because you knew that what that was like for you? Did that come up at all? Or were you operating from somewhere just completely different?

Lisa: That's a really good question. So I, I'm going to say indirectly. And here's why. Because I was talking about how I went to the extreme of giving my kids everything that I wish I would have had and listen to my children the way that I wish I had been listened to, to an extreme like I acknowledged that. But what it did do was allow my kids to really know that their voice was important, and that their feelings and thoughts were valid, and allowed them to share with me and my husband, the struggles they were having. I also am that Empath that really is a big observer of what's going on, and how can people are showing up and, and so with my oldest, he was in public school through middle school. He had a lot of interventions. At one point, he came off of his IEP and went on a 504. And he's doing wonderful. But when he was four and a half, we were told he'd never go to a normal school, he'd never amounted to anything. He is now a Kelly scholar, and a very intense private school principal on a roll every quarter, which means straight A's, a year round summer, a varsity swim person, and on the track, potentially even have academic and athletic scholarship money coming to him in the next two years.

Laura: So amazing. Congratulations!

Lisa: Thank you. And it's a compilation of all the things and all the people, right, the decision to have him go to the school where he's at. He brought it to us. So he struggled with learning for many years. And yet, we had him in the environment with all the right supports within school and the outside services, which is partly why I do what I do with other parents to help them understand, takes a village you have the inside supports the outside supports, and an objective third party to help you bring it all together myself is that third party for my clients? And he said to me, I'm like the middle of sixth grade man, I don't think I'm going to want to go to a public high school. The classes are too big. They don't understand how I think. I don't like the way that they teach. I can't learn from a textbook. It's I need real world life situations. So we listened. And we looked at some schools. He had one particular school in mind because he had a really strong STEM focus. And math and science are his things. And he's always been into space and physics and astronomy cosmology. And so we said if you can get into this one particular program and get some scholarship money, we will find a way to have you go. We did he studied, he got in and he's doing phenomenal. He's thriving, and he's a junior now in high school. So that that was him leading the charge with us helping him get there. My younger son, I had mentioned that when COVID came he imploded having ADHD and anxiety, and absence seizures is a recipe for disaster in a virtual environment. And one of those can be a recipe for disaster, let alone all three of them. And he wasn't diagnosed with the seizures until literally, we went to the doctor the day before the world shut down, if you will, with COVID. So we he got diagnosed, like during the time period where we couldn't even go in and see the neurologist. So we had all these things that were happening. And we knew that where he was wasn't working. And while he didn't say, I can't keep doing us, our hearts are breaking for him. And my husband was sitting with him through all the math sounds like I said, I'm not the student. Now English and writing, I was great with those. So I could sit with them through those parts of it. But we were literally having to sit there with him. And so it came to a point where I just had to start crawling around and is early as second grade I had said I don't think a normal public school is going to work for him. The way he thinks the way he processes the delays he has, we have to really start thinking so when you look at the parent notes, as far back as second grade for my now eighth grader, I had made comments about we're going to need to start looking at potential non public schools or private schools for him, I want the school system to understand this is somewhere we're going to go. But because of how his experience was, I think innately I knew I couldn't keep him there and have him not fully implode where he was going to hate school so much. You had talked about this right with some of the kids that work with that work with you, because he didn't want to go at all. He was losing his sense of relationships, because we weren't able to hang out with others because my in laws live close by, and we wanted to go to spend time with them. So he wasn't even seeing any of his friends outside of the virtual environment. And it just became too much. So back up a year before COVID We had visited some of the nonpublic schools for that my younger son. And we had showed them His psych profile. And we had showed them his IEP. And we had been turned away from numerous non public and private schools. We weren't ready to go there yet. But even from an application standpoint, because his profile was too complex. And so I take that too. And I you know, and I work with clients, but I knew that there was a place for him. And eventually we found it. And they have mindfulness every morning, they have yoga twice a week, they do meditation, they do multimodal learning environment, mix methodologies, it's a K through eight program, they're going to be expanding into high school. So I eventually got there. And the reason I wanted to share that piece of it is for anybody that's listening, whether what you all do, Laura and your school, what the school is, like I'm describing, because the two are very different. My My older son school is extremely academically intense, very rigorous, very, very focused, whereas my other sons is very bumpers, if you will, the the bumpers, the boundaries and the blueprint, extremely different profiles, extremely different needs. Yet, there was a place for both of them. And you have to dig and dig and dig to get there. But you eventually will find it. And that's the space that I hold for my clients when they feel like there's no hope for them to get their child what they need to thrive, and what the parent needs to not feel guilty anymore, that they're doing something wrong. Because it's never about what we're doing wrong. It's about what we don't know yet.

Laura: Yeah. Every time we welcome a new student a couple of weeks in, I get to have a conversation with the parent. I mean, I'm talking to them the whole time, but a couple of weeks in is generally where they start to talk to me about how they're feeling. And it's always guilty. Always and I always share that, that they are not the only ones feeling that way. So I want to call that out and really highlight that for anyone who's listening that has those feelings. So how do you create that space for the clients that you work with or the parents that you work with to move away from that guilt?

Lisa: That is so wonderful in a poll question, I'm actually going to pull something up really quick because this is so timely. So I'm to start, how do I help them pull from that that guilt is is through my lived experiences. And why I'm pulling something up right now is I just this morning, I posted something on LinkedIn, about my journey. And the post that I put out there today was the top of it said three words. Three words. Some summarize that life changing day when I met my son's, my oldest son's preschool teacher for the first time, the day he pushed over an expensive dollhouse, shattering it into what seemed like a million pieces, the three words guilt, shame, acceptance. So I felt very guilty because he had broken up. And then I felt shame, and embarrassed that it had happened. But what this preschool teacher did for me next, her genuine support, it broke down my self imposed barriers, so that I could be vulnerable enough to accept her help. What happened was, and I won't go into the whole story, but he knocked it over, she came up, she put her arm around me and said, it's going to be okay. She asked him to go to a sensory space where he could calm down, she didn't reprimand him. And we started to talk about what happened. And then she said, I can help him and he ended up being in her class, and I'm still in touch with her to this day. But I let her in. And so I feel like that story is the best way for me to describe there's just so timely that I actually just posted it this morning. That that's how I do it, I do it. Because I've been there. I give people the space that Andrei gave me that day. And then I allow us to move. However, that journey takes us guiding people intentionally, without direction, because only they can make the decisions on what to do. I can help figure out with them what they need, and how to go about it. But only they can take action. I can be there along with them to help it happen. And catch them when they start to fall down and pick them back up.

Laura: I love that so much. That is exactly what we do with students to that, like you just said like guiding without a specific direction in mind, I think that can feel really unfamiliar and maybe even scary to a lot of people who tend to think about like you have to give kids direction, you have to give them structure, which I'm not saying we don't give them structure, but like we have this idea. I think it's a I think it's a common cultural idea that you we have to tell kids what to do, or they're gonna go off the deep end. And I think we especially feel that way for kids who have challenges that don't quite fit. Like our public school system, or our traditional education system doesn't quite fit their needs. I think we see that. And we get scared that, you know, it's not like there, something's wrong, we have to fix it until we clamp down on controlling. And what you just said about being able to guide your clients without having in mind like this is where we're going to end up we don't have to know where we're going to end up. We're going to we're going to talk about things we're going to identify your needs. We're going to identify what it is that you want. We're going to identify your you know what, what's we're going to observe what happens when we take an action what works about it what doesn't and we're gonna go from there and we're going to find success that way. We can do that with with kiddos too. Yes, we can do that with kiddos too. And when we do that when we don't create a container this is the path that you need to be on this is what you need to follow this is where you need to end up otherwise something terrible I don't even know when you know your life is gonna be bad essentially is is the scary outcome. that we're worried about happening. But if we can, if we can try to let go of some of that control, and understand that actually, there are lots of ways in which life can be good. Lots and lots of ways in which like life can be good. And as long as you've got someone there who's listening, who's helping you understand what your needs are, who's helping you find the resources that you need, because we all need help. And helping you identify what you want to do, make adjustments along the way, pick you up, when you fall down, because we all fall down, you are going to make it right. That is such a relief to students, when we start to work with them, and I tell them, first thing, my job is to help you do what you want. And they're confused sometimes at first, like, what are we like, tell me what to do? Like, no, I'm going to give you some options, I'm going to give you a starting place, we're going to try this. We're going to see how it goes, you're going to tell me what you like about it, you're going to tell me what works. And you're going to tell me what doesn't and then we're going to make adjustments. And that's how we're going to do things. And I don't know, I can't know what parents think when I explain kind of this to them this approach. But I know at least many of them do end up enrolling their kids less. So they've got to have some faith. But I think it probably is, you know, a little bit like, what, what is this? What are we going to do? Here? I don't know if this is going to work. But I guess we can try it like we've got to do something differently. I just I didn't have I don't have a closing thought on that. But I just I just struck me, it struck me that your approach with adults, is what we do with kids. And I think it really is really important for making people feel accepted. And like they have a place and like they don't have to fit one specific box or one specific outcome. And when you do that, they can start to feel safe.

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. I love that you share that too. Because I, from our early conversation before we started the recording, I felt like there was some intersections. But I love the clarity now, because now, I also have you and your organization as another resource for some clients that we've yet to find there's a word yet to find the appropriate place for them. And when they think about what you were just saying, what I wrote down was inaction. So whether I'm dealing with situations for my parents that are also professional, so they're working through things in a professional environment, or they're working through things in the school systems for their children, I always tell people let go of the outcome. So I know that the outcome may be graduation, or it might be this new, great job, or I'm not in a toxic environment anymore. But I'm gonna use the word but here, if you're showing up as the victim, if you're showing up with that negative self talk and a close mindedness, if you're showing up with it to get to this outcome by x date, you're never giving yourself permission to move through the journey to celebrate the steps and the progress are making like that 1% Better which there's a phrase leads to mastery, which leads to certainty. And so if you're not taking those baby steps, and those micro celebrations, you never actually see the behavior changing, you never actually see the positive results coming from it. So you can't then truly change your habits and change your path. Because you're not looking at it from that perspective. And so it's interesting that you said, you know, people just trust you, because I would say the same thing with parents like this brand new client that I had a meeting with yesterday at this new school system. I said to them, I don't know your county, but I know what I know about your child. So let's figure out where we go. So I asked a lot of clarifying questions of the county. I celebrated them for some of the processes they did that I've not seen in any other county in our state. And at the end, they said this was a really great conversation and like I feel like we got we uncovered a lot. Thank you for the clarifications. But when we got off the phone, the mom said, I messaged my husband and said wow, like wow. Like I didn't know what I didn't know. And at least it was able to fill in those blanks. and she was able to ask questions of the school team that they weren't going to give me clarity on. But she didn't even know to ask for that clarity. But when she got it things, the puzzle pieces started to fit better. And so in collaboration, we are better off than out of collaboration or out of alignment with one another. And so the parents, hopefully, from your perspective, now are learning from the students what's working, that will benefit them. And then from my perspective, I'm teaching the parents how to help their kids start to show up advocate and speak their voice, even at home. And then together, we all move forward to what ever success looks like for each individual, both parents and students.

Laura: Yeah. Yeah, and I just what you said about collaboration, just now, I think there's, there's such a strong idea in at least American culture, that we are supposed to be able to do everything independently. We get this starting in school, when we're when we're children. And so there's some kind of cycle happening there, right, because like, adults create the learning environment and like, then we put students through the learning environment, they become adults and all of that stuff. But we do learn it in school, you need to take your tests independently, if you get help, you're cheating, cheating is bad, you're bad. The US, you know, on report cards and assessments and things like we never, we never officially report on what kids can do with help, we only report on what they can and cannot do by themselves. And there are so many places that we say this child is deficient, because they cannot do XYZ independently. And I that. I mean, I we're sitting here talking about how it takes a village, everyone needs help. And it's really hard, I think, for some people to believe that and internalize that. Because we're told from such a young age, that if you're not doing something independently, then you are deficient.

Lisa: I had never really thought about that. But you're right. It's true. And it's I just listened to a little snippet from I think it's Simon Sinek. Because I use his name. I don't follow him too often. But what are you small and lots of mindset? And he was saying, we can't do things by ourselves. Yeah, we think we can or need to because the society, right. So back to that social norms, right, like what's expected. I think we could talk for hours and hours and hours, there's so much to, to cover. But it's it's important, it's important conversation. It's important work. I believe that we're both doing and we're on different journeys. But I think our mission is similar in terms of life's purpose of helping others help themselves thrive. And whatever avenue that looks like. There's a lot of work to be done, but I'm glad that you're in it with me. Yeah, similar, you know, ocean working, working toward those outcomes. 

Laura: Yes, I am. So happy to have connected with you, and to learn about your work. For anyone who's listening right now, who would like to learn more about the work that you do, and maybe reach out to you, where can they find you?

Lisa: Great question. So you can find me in a couple places. LinkedIn, and on LinkedIn, I believe that it's under Lisa richer, I don't have my maiden name. If you're looking for me on Facebook, it would probably be Lisa Lazar, la Z AR and Richard spot ri. ch, er, my website is journey, the number two bloom.com. So Journey to bloom.com. And you could always email me also at Lisa, at Johnny to bloom.com. And you can get me through the website as well. But those are some ways that you can connect with me and I'd love to. Absolutely, Laura, I think there's a lot of people I can refer you to refer to you as well over time. And I look forward to staying connected. And I really appreciate you talking with me and having me on as a guest.

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